Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Deze afdeling is voor algemene topics die niet passen in wat reeds voorzien is. Ze moeten wel aansluiten bij ons thema.
Gebruikersavatar
Hans v d Mortel sr
Berichten: 15648
Lid geworden op: Za Jun 18, 2011 7:07 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Hans v d Mortel sr » Wo Okt 31, 2018 8:45 am

Pilgrim schreef:
Pendel voor vracht
Om de Marsbasis van spullen te voorzien denken de ingenieurs aan een speciaal ruimtevaartuig dat vracht vanuit de shuttles die rond Mars cirkelen naar de grond brengt. Dat vaartuig haalt zijn brandstof om op te stijgen uit materiaal op Mars, en om weer op Mars te landen van de shuttle.

Zo zwaar wegen een paar mensen niet. Dus die zouden best mee kunnen opstijgen. [icon_lol.gif]
Ik weet niks met zekerheid. Ik ben gelovig atheïst en verkondig uitsluitend eigen dogma's wegens gebrek aan de vrije wil.

Gebruikersavatar
xplosive
Berichten: 7499
Lid geworden op: Do Jun 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor xplosive » Ma Nov 05, 2018 8:35 pm

 

Samuel Bom 05-11-18, 09:50

De Nederlandse tuinbouwsector moet zich richten op het koloniseren van Mars. Volgens Martien Penning, directeur van tuinderconsortium Hillenraad Partners in Poeldijk, zijn buitenaardse groenten dé inspiratie die jonge tuinders nodig hebben.

"Hou op met piekeren over 5 procent meer omzet, en ga eens nadenken over buitenaardse groenten.'' Die oproep deed Penning onlangs in Noordwijk op een bijeenkomst voor jonge werknemers in de tuinbouwsector. "Mars lijkt onmogelijk, maar de tuinbouw moet zijn grenzen verleggen. We willen rode tomaten telen voor de rode planeet."

Penning deelde het podium met Bas Lansdorp van Mars One, dat binnen vijftien jaar een mens op Mars wil krijgen. Eerst moeten raketten het benodigde materiaal de ruimte in schieten. Daarna volgen in 2031 vijf teams van vier astronauten. Zij moeten er de rest van hun leven doorbrengen.

Buitenaardse kolonies lijken een vreemd doel voor tuinders. Penning wijst echter op het belang van circulaire landbouw, waarin alles wordt hergebruikt; een idee dat in de tuinbouw nog niet echt leeft. "Daarom heb je een metafoor nodig, een onmogelijke droom. In Nederland is circulaire landbouw geen noodzaak, op Mars wel. Als je die noodzaak benadrukt, ontwikkel je technieken die ook op aarde bruikbaar zijn.''

Inspirerend
De tuinders zijn in ieder geval enthousiast. "Het is inspirerend je werk in groter perspectief te zien'', zegt een van hen na afloop. "Neil Armstrong wist ook niet zeker of hij de maan kon halen. Mars klinkt ver weg, maar je moet durven dromen. Het zou prachtig zijn als wij hieraan mee kunnen werken."
Gun jezelf wat je een ander toewenst     islam = racisme   & de hel op aarde voor mens en dier
                                   koran = racistisch & handboek voor criminelen
      Moslimlanden bewijzen dagelijks:    meer islam = meer verkrachte mensenrechten

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Di Nov 06, 2018 12:52 am

SpaceX BFR Flight Test To Begin In 2019
mic of orion - Gepubliceerd op 1 nov. 2018



Why SpaceX is planning to develop its first Mars landing missions with Nasa? Top 4 facts
ENGINEERING TODAY - Gepubliceerd op 12 aug. 2018

De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
xplosive
Berichten: 7499
Lid geworden op: Do Jun 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor xplosive » Wo Nov 07, 2018 4:07 am

 

By Paul Rincon, Science editor, BBC News website, 6 November 2018

To mark the second season of the television series Mars, Hollywood director Ron Howard talked to the BBC about creating a realistic depiction of the first human colonies on the Red Planet.

If humankind is to expand out into the Universe, then Mars is likely to be our first stepping stone. With an atmosphere largely consisting of carbon dioxide and temperatures that vary between 20C and -125C, the Red Planet isn't exactly ideal for human occupation.

We'd have to adapt to living almost entirely within sealed habitats - so outdoors-y types need not apply.

But there is perhaps a bigger issue in play. Colonising Mars would provide humankind with a lifeboat, ensuring our species' survival if some giant catastrophe were to befall civilisation - let's say an asteroid strike, or an ecological breakdown.

It's something that several big names - such as SpaceX founder Elon Musk - are thinking hard about.

Through a hybrid of drama and documentary, National Geographic's Mars series explores how humans would establish themselves as an interplanetary species. Season two of the series begins on 11 November.

Mars' Oscar-winning executive producers Ron Howard and Brian Grazer are responsible for a long list of hit Hollywood movies, including Splash, Cocoon, A Beautiful Mind and Apollo 13, as well as landmark television series such as From the Earth to the Moon, which told the story of the space race.

Ron Howard told BBC News that while he's a big fan of space exploration, he was not initially sold on the importance of settling Mars.

"When I first began the series a couple of years ago, I thought it was a great idea to do an adventure about going to Mars and we should make it as real as we possibly could," Mr Howard says.

"But I wasn't sure I believed in the idea of going to Mars. I knew I believed in the idea of space exploration… and any show that advocated that was making a statement that was healthy and positive for human beings - to inspire their imaginations to look outward.

"But as I have gone through the process of working on the show and interviewing some of the big thinkers, I now really do believe in it strategically - I don't mean that from a military standpoint, I mean it from the point of the ongoing evolution of the human species… I not only believe it's viable, I'm a big supporter."

Season one of Mars followed the crew of the spacecraft Daedalus, as the astronauts attempted to create a pioneer settlement on the Red Planet in 2033. Season two is set nine years later and follows the fortunes of the first fully-fledged colony. The script tackles the everyday challenges of the settlers, including the first births on the Red Planet, outbreaks of disease and mechanical breakdowns.

It also documents the tensions between scientists who want to study the planet and private companies who want to profit from its natural resources.

"Here in our show, we have interests that are not entirely aligned in the expedition. Private sector vs this international group of scientists. And it hasn't all been worked out on Earth; they each have their agendas and their orders. It's in the fine print that the conflict develops," said Mr Howard.

The series features an international organisation that is responsible for the scientific exploration of Mars. Indeed, many experts have argued that spreading the effort and cost of a real-life crewed Mars mission between countries is the only viable course of action if we want to get there anytime soon.

Yet, with US support for the International Space Station proposed to end in 2024, and reliance on the Russian Soyuz rocket for flights to the space station to cease in coming years, it might seem that we're approaching the culmination of an unprecedented era of international co-operation in human spaceflight.

Asked what would be needed to make a real Mars settlement a success, Mr Howard told me: "I think if there's a lesson in our season, it's that the more co-ordinated human beings can be internationally, both in terms of scientific exploration, national interests and corporate interests, the more alignment the better."

The documentary segments of season one featured some high-profile real-life stories, such as the daily operations of Musk's SpaceX and astronaut Scott Kelly's year-long mission aboard the International Space Station in 2015/2016. Mr Howard said he thought it would initially be more difficult to find case studies for season two, but found plentiful material at one of Earth's last frontiers - the Arctic. Here, the interests of oil-drilling abut with those of scientific researchers and environmentalists on a regular basis.

"Exploring various aspects of the parallel stories where industry and science are clashing, and the ecology of the planet is at risk, aligned beautifully with what it would take to begin really settling on Mars, where human beings are having to really impact their environment.

"So it turned out to be very interesting and useful. Also, because we learned a lot in season one, I think we did a better job of targeting the documentary material that would support and reinforce the drama of the scripted material, so I think the whole thing is even a little bit more seamless. If audiences respond well to this season, and we do more seasons, we're already understanding that there are some great ways to keep applying the documentary side to the ongoing adventure of colonisation and beyond."

Elon Musk has outlined his real-life plans for Mars colonisation in some detail. Though there is no firm timeline, he envisions a fully reusable transportation system that would take 80 days to get to Mars. His rocket and spaceship combination would stand 122 metres tall - bigger than the Apollo-era Saturn V rocket - and carry 100 people at a time.

Musk has said he believes a Mars colony would need about a million people to make it self-sustaining - one of his ultimate hopes.

Mr Howard said the series drew on some of the engineering ideas proposed by SpaceX, Nasa and other sources. "The spaceniks can probably see it's its own style of hybrid. We didn't use any props from other movies, so we had to create everything. We did our own designs and for our production team, on a TV budget, it was probably like throwing together your own blueprint for going to Mars."

Speaking about the new series to a small group of journalists, Mr Howard explained why he thought space exploration had such enduring appeal: "My fascination started as a boy witnessing the space race and all that was accomplished.

"It made the whole world feel like human beings were capable of so much more and there was so much to look forward to. So between the mystery of space and the drama and excitement and thrill of humankind's ability to explore it and actually experience it - it has just captured our imagination.

"One of the things I learned from working on Apollo 13 and interviewing so many of the astronauts who went on the Moon and walked on the Moon - they were so matter of fact about it."

He added: "To them it was just proof it was possible to go, and that was the next horizon. That's what human beings do, they look to the horizon and they want to go there."

MARS returns for a second season on Sunday 11 November at 20:00 GMT on National Geographic
Gun jezelf wat je een ander toewenst     islam = racisme   & de hel op aarde voor mens en dier
                                   koran = racistisch & handboek voor criminelen
      Moslimlanden bewijzen dagelijks:    meer islam = meer verkrachte mensenrechten

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Wo Nov 07, 2018 3:34 pm

Hier heb je een trailer van bovengenoemde film. Let op het commentaar na 1,00 min. waaruit blijkt dat dit waarschijnlijk een anti-Trump- en pro-climatehoax-film is

Mars Season 2 – Trailer | National Geographic
National Geographic - Gepubliceerd op 27 jul. 2018

De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
Ali Yas
Berichten: 6202
Lid geworden op: Zo Apr 15, 2012 3:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Ali Yas » Wo Nov 07, 2018 8:07 pm

Pilgrim schreef:Hier heb je een trailer van bovengenoemde film. Let op het commentaar na 1,00 min. waaruit blijkt dat dit waarschijnlijk een anti-Trump- en pro-climatehoax-film is

Het is sowieso een milieuwaanzinnigenfilm. Dat is het slag dat liever de mensheid ziet verdwijnen. Begonnen die lui maar met zichzelf!
Truth sounds like hate to those who hate truth.

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Zo Nov 11, 2018 1:29 am

We need to change the way we talk about space exploration

By Nadia Drake - PUBLISHED November 9, 2018

Building a sustainable human presence on other worlds should be open to all. Comparing the journey to violent conquest doesn't help.

When discussing space exploration, people often invoke stories about the exploration of our own planet, like the European conquest and colonization of the Americas, or the march westward in the 1800s, when newly minted Americans believed it was their duty and destiny to expand across the continent.

But increasingly, government agencies, journalists, and the space community at large are recognizing that these narratives are born from racist, sexist ideologies that historically led to the subjugation and erasure of women and indigenous cultures, creating barriers that are still pervasive today.

Lees verder>>>

Ook in de Mars-beweging lijkt de politieke correctheid toe te slaan... :thinking:
De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Ma Nov 12, 2018 4:41 pm

Will the small farm be key to a Mars colony ?

November 11, 2018 - by jamesrobsteinhaus

Afbeelding

This is one possible lay out of a small aquaponics farm on Mars, the red are the airlocks on both ends, the orange would be suit storage and processing, and maintenance, the light green the aquaponics and the dark green living quarters. This would be for a four person operation. Such a set up could supply all the food and air needed for not only those four people but produce sufficient extra to feed and additional 10 to 16 more.

Afbeelding

This two person set up requires significantly more many hours of work to maintain and only produces an additional 4 to 8 peoples worth beyond the amount the people that run it need.

Both however are economically viable methods are producing food on Mars. These are possible also because the less capital needed to start a business the more people who would be willing and able to raise that capital.

There are many different large scale, centrally planned projects proposed. All such require raising a great deal of capital from a few very limited sources. However the number of people who can raise the capital for this much smaller scale operation is far far greater. This factor alone will see that the small independent farm actually has more people investing in it. The lower the actual start up cost the more people who will be interested and able in starting is a key factor in determining what methods will work there.

Are you interested in being an aquaponics farmer on mars? Can you raise the capital for one of these. Do you have the skill set needed to work one of these? Such farms will take years to produce enough to pay them off but there will be a market for nearly any organics you are capable of producing though some will most certainly be in higher demand than others so pay off better.

If it is your desire to be among the colonist this is one possible route you might want to consider.

http://philippines.eptle.org/will-the-s ... 7cHvRugd9Y
De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Ma Nov 12, 2018 5:52 pm

Elon Musk Predicts When SpaceX Will Build Its First Base on Mars

By Mike Brown on September 24, 2018

Afbeelding
The concept image of a future Mars settlement.

SpaceX wants to build a human settlement on Mars, and it could arrive before the end of the next decade. CEO Elon Musk revealed over the weekend that the company’s famed rendering, which shows a series of BFR rockets stationed on the red planet alongside roads and a more permanent base, could become reality by 2028.

It’s a big update on the company’s Mars settlement plans, which Musk explained in detail at the International Astronautical Congress a year ago. Musk said he plans to send two unmanned BFRs in 2022, followed by two more unmanned BFRs and two manned BFRs in 2024, in a timetable he described as “ambitious.” Earlier this month, the CEO announced that Japanese billionaire Yusaku Maezawa would take six to eight artists around the moon on the BFR in 2023, but while the new project appeared to coincide with the proposed Mars missions, Musk’s latest post confirms the company is still pressing ahead to move fast with its Mars plans.

The six-ship fleet would serve as the starting point for a more ambitious colony. The BFR uses 31 Raptor engines powered by liquid oxygen and methane to ensure humans visiting Mars can refuel using natural resources and return home. Each ship would carry 100 tons of supplies, initially serving as the humans’ homes. The passengers would be tasked with extracting around one tonne of ice per day, becoming self-sufficient and returning home with the harvested fuel.

This initial project would lay the foundations for something bigger. Paul Wooster, principal Mars development engineer for SpaceX, said earlier this month that “the idea would be to expand out, start off not just with an outpost, but grow into a larger base, not just like there are in Antarctica, but really a village, a town, growing into a city and then multiple cities on Mars.” These cities would offer habitats, greenhouses, life support, and enable new experiments that answer some of the biggest questions around the red planet.

SpaceX is actively developing the BFR for these missions. At the lunar mission announcement, Musk confirmed that the company plans “hop tests” of a few hundred kilometers at the Boca Chica, Texas, facility, as early as next year.

Mars is just the beginning, though. Musk explained at the same event that the BFR is “really intended as an interplanetary transport system that’s capable of getting from Earth to anywhere in the solar system as you establish propellant depots along the way.”

https://www.inverse.com/article/49244-e ... refresh=35
De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
Hans v d Mortel sr
Berichten: 15648
Lid geworden op: Za Jun 18, 2011 7:07 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Hans v d Mortel sr » Di Nov 20, 2018 8:42 pm

Afbeelding

BANG VOOR ALIENS?

Aliens zoeken de bewoonde wereld op. Maar wij aardse mensen gaan op zoek naar de miljarden en miljarden dollars verslindende kale netenplaneet Mars. Waarom?

De Alien (soms ook Xenomorph genoemd) is een fictief parasitair buitenaards wezen, dat voorkomt in zes films van 20th Century Fox. Daarnaast komt het wezen in een groot aantal andere media voor, zoals stripboeken, romans, videospellen en de Koran.
Ik weet niks met zekerheid. Ik ben gelovig atheïst en verkondig uitsluitend eigen dogma's wegens gebrek aan de vrije wil.

Gebruikersavatar
xplosive
Berichten: 7499
Lid geworden op: Do Jun 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor xplosive » Di Nov 20, 2018 10:35 pm

 

By Jonathan Amos, BBC Science Correspondent, 19 November 2018

The American space agency (Nasa) says it will send its 2020 Mars rover to a location known as Jezero Crater.

Nasa believes the rocks in this nearly 50km-wide bowl could conceivably hold a record of ancient life on the planet.

Satellite images of Jezero point to river water having once cut through its rim and flowed via a delta system into a big lake.

It is the kind of environment that might just have supported microbes some 3.5-3.9 billion years ago.

This was a period when Mars was much warmer and wetter than it is today.

What is so special about Jezero?
Evidence for the past presence of a lake is obviously a draw, but Ken Farley, the Nasa project scientist on the mission, said the delta traces were also a major attraction.

"A delta is extremely good at preserving bio-signatures - any evidence of life that might have existed in the lake water, or at the interface of the sediment and the lake water, or possibly things that lived in the headwaters region that were swept in by the river and deposited in the delta," he told reporters.

Jezero's multiple rock types, including clays and carbonates, have high potential to preserve the organic molecules that would hint at life's bygone existence.

The 500m-deep crater was chosen after a four-year consultation process with Mars scientists. In a straw-poll taken at the end of the most recent site-selection workshop, it came out the clear favourite. Nasa's administration has now endorsed the choice.

Jezero is sited just north of Mars' equator. It is named after a town in Bosnia-Herzegovina. In some Slavic languages the word "jezero" also means "lake".

How does 2020 link to future missions?
Another of the robot's key objectives will be to select and "cache" in small canisters some rock samples that could, at a later date, be collected and returned to Earth labs for analysis.

Nasa is working with the European Space Agency (Esa) on this initiative, but exactly when the sample tubes might come home is uncertain.

Planning with Esa was at an early stage, said Thomas Zurbuchen, Nasa's science chief. "Depending on how the details come out, it could be in the early 2030s," he explained.

Is the 2020 rover a copy of Curiosity?
The 2020 rover is based on the one-tonne Curiosity robot that the agency landed in Gale Crater in 2012. Curiosity has been a great success, and Nasa wants to repeat it. Using the same "template" also saves money; some equipment spares were left over from 2012.

That said, instrument-wise, the new vehicle is quite a bit different. Yes, it will again feature cameras, a robotic arm, a drill and a laser - but there is a new suite of sensors and analysis tools, and there is even an experiment to demonstrate how future astronauts might make oxygen on the Red Planet.

The new robot will use the same "Skycrane" technology that put Curiosity down with such great precision six years ago - but with an add-on. Engineers have developed an on-the-fly mapping system called Terrain-Relative Navigation which ought to bring even greater accuracy to the landing process.

What else can we look forward to on Mars?
Missions to Mars can only launch inside a tight time window due to the alignment of the planets.

The 2020 venture will leave Earth in the July/August of that year and should land on 18 February 2021.

"Nasa has a long and successful track record at Mars. Since Mariner 4 flew by Mars in 1965, we've orbited, we've landed and we've roved across the surface of the Red Planet," said Lori Glaze, the acting director of Nasa's planetary science division. "And we've got another opportunity to improve our track record a week from today when we land InSight on the surface. We're all looking forward to that."

Unlike 2020 and Curiosity, Insight is a static lander. It will be the first mission dedicated to "looking inside" the planet. It will use seismometers to listen for "Marsquakes", to help build a picture of Mars' internal structure.

Esa is sending a rover to Mars in 2020 also. European scientists recently selected Oxia Planum as its destination. Satellite imagery suggests, as with Jezero and Gale, this ancient terrain came into prolonged contact with water.
Gun jezelf wat je een ander toewenst     islam = racisme   & de hel op aarde voor mens en dier
                                   koran = racistisch & handboek voor criminelen
      Moslimlanden bewijzen dagelijks:    meer islam = meer verkrachte mensenrechten

Gebruikersavatar
xplosive
Berichten: 7499
Lid geworden op: Do Jun 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor xplosive » Vr Nov 23, 2018 3:26 am

 

Adam Morton on 11/22/2018 at 5:00 AM

Plans for the exploration and even colonization of other planets are very much in the air, and getting to Mars in particular has become a billionaire's hobby lately. Elon Musk would like to establish a human colony on Mars in a matter of decades. (For the foreseeable future—a century, I would venture—Mars will be the only real possibility.) But planetary colonies may be a bad idea, even a disastrous idea. So, it is important to see the arguments against them, as well as their appeal. I begin with a reason that is sometimes made central to proposals for colonies—the idea that we should achieve them as soon as it is feasible.

It is a call for escape from imminent danger. The idea is that nuclear war, ecological catastrophe, or the rise of artificially intelligent robots, will wipe out humans on Earth. But a colony far away might survive, so that the species continues. Stephen Hawking is among those who have argued, or usually just pronounced, for versions of this (and if you want scientific authority, it is hard to do better). But the idea has serious flaws. It is hard to think of even a post-apocalyptic Earth that is less hospitable to any terrestrial life than Mars, let alone elsewhere in the solar system, so the challenges are enormous. But let us ignore that. Suppose that a colony had a reasonable chance of surviving, would the argument from danger justify founding it soon? I think not.

One danger is nuclear and biological war: One nation or ethnic group fears or hates another enough to unleash bombs or viruses. In a bad scenario they succeed. Millions die, and their territory becomes uninhabitable. In the worst scenario, the other side retaliates or the affliction spreads and eventually everyone is dead. But people survive on Mars. Which people? They will include members of one group or their opponents, so if the aim really is to wipe out this group it will be directed at the colonists as well. They are hated, and they are capable of retaliation. Bomb-bearing rockets are much simpler to make than people-bearing rockets. And someone crazy enough to push the button would be crazy enough to direct them at the hated enemy wherever they are found. So, the colony would not be safe. At any rate, it will not be not safe enough that founding it is a better bet than making war less likely on Earth. Worse, any nation party to founding a colony will arouse suspicion in its enemies that it is scheming to start and survive a war. And this makes war more rather than less likely.

Another danger is the rise of smart robots. But again, there is no escape in space. Space travel and running a colony use as much computation as they can get. This was true of the moon landings and it is even truer now. Human beings have an essential role in plans and design, but on the trip itself they are mostly just going along for the ride. So, imagine, just for the sake of argument, that hyper-calculating artificial intelligences are in a position to threaten human civilization. The extension of that civilization on another planet relies even more on those very powers, which will have to be networked to earthly computation. If mere humans can hack into machinery in targeted countries to disrupt them, then these super-capable but malevolent AI's will have no problem. Whatever their "motives," these will be the same elsewhere as on earth, and space is less of an obstacle to the flow of (mis)information and commands than to the flow of people and physical objects. No safety there.

The third danger is ecological. We are ruining the climate and polluting the oceans. We could develop technology that mitigated or even reversed the dangers. It would be easier than developing technology for surviving on Mars, where we must grow food and create oxygen in a very cold and dark environment without much protection from radiation and a limited supply of water. Moreover, getting enough people to Mars to make a colony that could survive without help from home, self-sufficient technologically and with enough genetic diversity that our already rather uniform species would have a future, would involve a lot of rockets. Musk talks in terms of 10,000 flights, although some plans require more. And this would be just to get things started. We just do not know what the impact on the earth and its atmosphere of the launches and the prior manufacturing would be. It would not be positive, at any rate. And industrial power and scientific brains would be diverted away from the needs of earth to the well-being of the colony. It is not what we need; you would only think that we could afford it if you were blind to how desperate things really are. So again, the colony solution is likely to make the earthly situation even more dire.

These are problems for human colonies as refugees on any planet. What about colonies for other purposes, from exploiting resources to the destiny of humanity? There are so many possible purposes, and the means and destinations are so varied, that there is not going to be a single simple answer. But some of the dangers are common to many of the plans. There is the possibility of triggering war or ecological catastrophe on earth, already mentioned. There is the folly of sending vulnerable humans to do jobs that robots can do more safely and cheaply. There is the diversion of resources, effort, and commitment from the pressing needs of our planet. To appreciate many of these, one has to take fully on board quite how inhospitable to anything like human life most planets are. Cold, radiation, lack of oxygen and lack of the food-providing soil that has built up on earth over billions of years: all of these are a problem anywhere in the solar system except for our one place. And there is the extreme neediness of human beings, who have to keep their body temperature constant and their brains constantly operating, and who flourish only when they maintain complex delicate social systems. This is a matter of biology rather than of physics; we have evolved to fit our own planet and we require enormous resources to survive anywhere else.

Of course, there are replies to consider. Of course, the full range of possibilities cannot be discussed in a few sentences. Of course, a flash of rhetoric is no substitute for a real analysis. That is the main point. These are complex and many-sided issues that need to be thought out carefully. Separating the realistic from the science fictional, opportunities from nightmares, is not an easy job. It asks for skills that are spread among people and disciplines: scientific sophistication, technological savvy, an eye for future developments, both scientific and social. And, often neglected, a sensitivity to issues about the long-term fate of the human species. Moreover, the stakes are high, so we need a component of what the psychologist Gary Klein calls "premortem" thinking, assuming for the sake of argument that a plan will lead to disaster and conceiving of the most likely route that disaster will take. This is to ask a lot. (I have contributed to it in a recent book.) But we do not have to be rushed; we can put our heads together and think it out properly. Disappointing as it may be to realize that colonization gives no solution to imminent existential threats, the silver lining is that we have time to make proper plans and separate the view real and attractive possibilities from hype and wishful thinking.
Gun jezelf wat je een ander toewenst     islam = racisme   & de hel op aarde voor mens en dier
                                   koran = racistisch & handboek voor criminelen
      Moslimlanden bewijzen dagelijks:    meer islam = meer verkrachte mensenrechten

Gebruikersavatar
Hans v d Mortel sr
Berichten: 15648
Lid geworden op: Za Jun 18, 2011 7:07 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Hans v d Mortel sr » Vr Nov 23, 2018 11:09 am

Het doel van het leven is overleven.

Maar dat is onvolledige informatie. Er dient wel bij verteld te worden dat het menselijk leven niets voorstelt in de niet te overziene kosmos en van slechts belachelijk dramatisch korte duur is. De somatische kracht in het leven van de mens is te verwaarlozen. Net zo min als de kracht van de psyche. De meeste veel te duur betaalde voetballers gaan nauwelijks nog tien jaar mee. De vrije wil is dan ver te zoeken. Dus vanwaar die waanzin om maar door te willen blijven leven in de tijd?

Het enorme gezeik over de opwarming van de aarde houdt alle podia in de wereld bezet. Er kan pas rede tot vreugde zijn wanneer blijkt dat de ziekte IMPOTENTIE wereldwijd heeft toegeslagen. Ik vermoed dat pas dan de mens van alle paniek verlost zal zijn en in alle rust zich kan voorbereiden op zijn eigen termineren.

Alles draait om geld. Er is nog nooit een begrafenisondernemer failliet gegaan. :thinking:
Ik weet niks met zekerheid. Ik ben gelovig atheïst en verkondig uitsluitend eigen dogma's wegens gebrek aan de vrije wil.

Gebruikersavatar
xplosive
Berichten: 7499
Lid geworden op: Do Jun 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor xplosive » Vr Nov 23, 2018 2:41 pm

Hans v d Mortel sr schreef:Alles draait om geld. Er is nog nooit een begrafenisondernemer failliet gegaan. :thinking:

En dat heeft weer te maken met de uitbuiting van menselijke sentimenten. Lijken verbranden samen met al het huisafval zou immers veel goedkoper zijn. Als dat steevast zou gebeuren dan zouden er geen begrafenisondernemers kunnen bestaan. Is die keuze trouwens in onze samenleving geoorloofd : "Geef mij maar mee met het huisafval als ik dood ben." ?
Gun jezelf wat je een ander toewenst     islam = racisme   & de hel op aarde voor mens en dier
                                   koran = racistisch & handboek voor criminelen
      Moslimlanden bewijzen dagelijks:    meer islam = meer verkrachte mensenrechten

Gebruikersavatar
Ali Yas
Berichten: 6202
Lid geworden op: Zo Apr 15, 2012 3:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Ali Yas » Vr Nov 23, 2018 9:50 pm

xplosive schreef:Colonizing Other Planets Could Trigger War On Earth

Ongelezen kan ik dit wel zeggen het hiermee eens te zijn. Voor het koloniseren van andere planeten zullen reusachtige fondsen moeten worden aangeboord, en dat gaat alleen met dwang. Die dwang kan alleen in een dictatuur en dictaturen gaan om niks met elkaar op de vuist.
Truth sounds like hate to those who hate truth.

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Vr Nov 23, 2018 10:11 pm

Wel, ondernemers zoals Elon Musk, willen het allemaal op eigen kracht doen, zonder de hulp van de belastingbetaler...
De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
Hans v d Mortel sr
Berichten: 15648
Lid geworden op: Za Jun 18, 2011 7:07 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Hans v d Mortel sr » Vr Nov 23, 2018 10:13 pm

xplosive schreef:
Hans v d Mortel sr schreef:Alles draait om geld. Er is nog nooit een begrafenisondernemer failliet gegaan. :thinking:

En dat heeft weer te maken met de uitbuiting van menselijke sentimenten. Lijken verbranden samen met al het huisafval zou immers veel goedkoper zijn. Als dat steevast zou gebeuren dan zouden er geen begrafenisondernemers kunnen bestaan. Is die keuze trouwens in onze samenleving geoorloofd : "Geef mij maar mee met het huisafval als ik dood ben." ?

Beste Xplosive . . . Wij zijn afval.

Denk na! Denk aan de dagelijkse houdbaarheidsdatum die verplicht is op alle producten. Met de neus op de feiten gedrukt heeft de mensheid altijd door de eeuwen heen, logisch gezien, zijn voedsel weten te waarderen. Tot aan een beperkte stadium. Logisch. De mens is zich bewust van zijn dementerende ik. Moslims niet. Maar die reken ik niet mee. Wie houdt nu in Allah's naam nog rekening met de enig mislukte mensensoort op aarde die verwacht het eeuwige betere leven te verkrijgen na de dood? Dat zijn . . .

MOSLIMS.

Moslims zijn afgodendienaars van de profeet Mohammed.
Ik weet niks met zekerheid. Ik ben gelovig atheïst en verkondig uitsluitend eigen dogma's wegens gebrek aan de vrije wil.

Gebruikersavatar
xplosive
Berichten: 7499
Lid geworden op: Do Jun 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor xplosive » Zo Nov 25, 2018 4:34 am

 

Door Joris Jansen, Nieuwsredacteur, 19-11-2018 • 11:22

Elon Musk, de oprichter van SpaceX, heeft op Twitter laten weten dat er een 'radicale verandering' aan zit te komen bij de Big Falcon Rocket. Deze reusachtige raket is op dit moment in ontwikkeling en moet in zijn geheel herbruikbaar worden.

Musk meldt op Twitter alleen dat er sprake is van een nieuw ontwerp waarover hij erg enthousiast is. Hij omschrijft het als 'heerlijk contra-intuïtief'. Als antwoord op een vraag van een gebruiker of het ontwerp van de Big Falcon Rocket weer is veranderd of dat hij enkel sprak over het recentste ontwerp, zegt Musk dat er sprake is van een 'radicale verandering'. De SpaceX-topman gaf geen details over wat deze verandering precies inhoudt.

Het zou niet de eerste keer zijn dat het ontwerp wordt aangepast. Zo werd in september duidelijk dat SpaceX de BFR gaat inzetten voor de voor 2023 geplande toeristenvlucht om de maan en dat onder meer de motorenconfiguratie van de tweede trap van de raket was gewijzigd. Die bestaat nu uit zeven gelijke Raptor-motoren in plaats van de eerdere configuratie met twee verschillende motoren. Verder werd het ruimtevaartuig verlengd en zijn bijvoorbeeld canards toegevoegd, kleine vleugeltjes aan de voorkant van het ruimtevaartuig.

Elon Musk meldt ook dat SpaceX niet langer van plan is om ook de tweede rakettrap van de Falcon 9 geschikt te maken voor hergebruik. Het bedrijf laat de eerste rakettrappen van de Falcon 9-raketten steeds verticaal landen en intact terugkeren naar de aarde, zodat ze kunnen worden hergebruikt voor nieuwe lanceringen. Binnenkort volgt de eerste Falcon 9-lancering met een eerste rakettrap die al twee keer eerder is gebruikt.

In plaats van het volledig herbruikbaar maken van de Falcon 9, versnelt SpaceX de plannen voor de Big Falcon Rocket, aldus Musk. De plannen om de BFR versneld operationeel te krijgen betekent dat ook een ander plan sneuvelt: het testen van een mini-versie van de BFR.

De eerste orbitale vlucht van deze 118 meter hoge raket zou in 2020 kunnen plaatsvinden. Volgens de officiële planning is het de bedoeling dat in 2022 alvast twee BFR-schepen richting Mars gaan en dat in 2024 ook astronauten naar de rode planeet vliegen. Het lijkt er echter op dat dat schema met twee jaar wordt opgeschoven. De genoemde radicale wijziging van het ontwerp kan het schema eventueel ook nog beïnvloeden.
Gun jezelf wat je een ander toewenst     islam = racisme   & de hel op aarde voor mens en dier
                                   koran = racistisch & handboek voor criminelen
      Moslimlanden bewijzen dagelijks:    meer islam = meer verkrachte mensenrechten

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Ma Nov 26, 2018 2:22 am

Elon Musk Denies That SpaceX's Mars Colony Will Be a Ticket Out for the Rich

Catie Keck - nov. 26, 2018

As Mars colonization inches ever closer to becoming a reality, some have argued that the ability to afford a ticket to the Red Planet is a luxury afforded only to the wealthiest members of society. Billionaire Elon Musk has said it’ll run potential Mars inhabitants traveling with his company SpaceX hundreds of thousands of dollars to get there. But in a new interview, he rebuffed the assertion that a one-way ticket to Mars is an easy ticket out for the rich.

The comments were part of an interview with the SpaceX and Tesla CEO that will air Sunday evening in the final episode of Axios’ four-part limited documentary series on HBO. In a clip from the interview, Elon Musk hinted that advancements by his company for Mars colonization have been notable and said there’s a “70 percent” chance that he heads to the Red Planet himself.

“We’ve recently made a number of breakthroughs that I am just really fired up about,” Musk said, who added he’s considering moving to there. Asked whether a Mars colony will end up being an “escape hatch for rich people,” Musk responded: “No. Your probability of dying on Mars is much higher than Earth.”

Musk reasserted that a trip to Mars with his company would be likely be priced at a “couple hundred thousand dollars,” which is certainly an exorbitant amount of money for the average person but relatively low for space travel. But in spite of the reported thousands of people who are already vying for an opportunity to colonize the planet, Musk pointed to the harsh conditions under which any Mars inhabitants would be expected to live and insinuated it wouldn’t be the cush existence that might appeal to the wealthy.



The SpaceX CEO noted the intense working conditions for early Mars settlers, claiming that anyone who makes it through the initial trip has “nonstop” work ahead of them in order to help build the base. Musk said there will be little in the way of time for leisure, and even if Mars inhabitants can tough it through the initial trip and daily work, there’s still a chance that the conditions on Mars could result in death. There’s also the possibly those who travel to Mars may never return to Earth.

“Does that sounds like an escape hatch for rich people?” Musk asked.

Speaking at the International Astronautical Congress in Guadalajara, Mexico last year, Musk said that he aimed to base the cost of the trip around the median price of a house in the U.S.

“You cannot create a self-sustaining civilization if the ticket price is $10 billion per person,” he said. “If we can get the cost of moving to Mars to be roughly equivalent to a median house price in the United States, which is around $200,000, then I think the probability of establishing a self-sustaining civilization is very high. I think it would almost certainly occur.”

Musk also said that sponsorships could come into play and suggested that the average person could squirrel enough away to eventually afford the trip.

“Not everyone would want to go. In fact, probably a relatively small number of people from Earth would want to go, but enough would want to go who could afford it for it to happen,” he said. “People could also get sponsorship. It gets to the point where almost anyone, if they saved up and this was their goal, could buy a ticket and move to Mars—and given that Mars would have a labor shortage for a long time, jobs would not be in short supply.”

Gizmodo reported in April of last year that some people were already working with financial planners to save for their trips the Red Planet. Dan Egan, the VP of behavioral finance at online investing service Betterment, told Gizmodo at the time the idea was that “over time, the price of [space travel] will come down, and if our customers start saving, they’re going to be able to afford that.”

Be that as it may, 200,000 clams is still a hefty and unattainable sum of money for most—even for those already saving.

[Axios]

https://gizmodo.com/elon-musk-denies-th ... 5o3e1MNsow
De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
xplosive
Berichten: 7499
Lid geworden op: Do Jun 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor xplosive » Di Nov 27, 2018 2:58 am

 

26 november 2018 20:54, Laatste update: 23:51

De InSight van de Amerikaanse ruimtevaartorganisatie NASA is maandagavond, na 484 miljoen kilometer vliegen, aangekomen op Mars (om 20:52:59 Nederlandse tijd). De verkenner werd op 5 mei 2018 gelanceerd.

Het verlossende levensteken van InSight kwam ongeveer acht minuten na de landing aan op aarde.

De InSight bestaat uit een Marslander met meerdere meetinstrumenten die grondonderzoek zullen uitvoeren op de 'Rode Planeet'. Het is de eerste verkenner ooit, die meters diep in de grond van de planeet zal gaan boren. Wetenschappers kunnen zo onderzoeken wat er onder het oppervlak zit. De missie zal ruim twee jaar duren.

Het apparaat is met een snelheid van 20.000 kilometer per uur de dampkring van Mars binnengekomen. Daarna is de snelheid in zeven minuten afgeremd, waarna de verkenner met een snelheid van 8 kilometer per uur is geland op de planeet.

Ingrijpen vanaf aarde was onmogelijk tijdens de landing, maar het verlossende levensteken van InSight kwam acht minuten na de landing aan bij de vluchtleiding.

Maar zo'n 40 procent van de landingen op Mars slaagt
De missie is geland op de vlakte Elysium Planitia, een gebied waar onderzoekers verwachtten geen rotsen of heuvels aan te treffen. NASA noemt de locatie ook wel "de grootste parkeerplaats van Mars".

Landingen op Mars zijn risicovol, omdat ze uit veel verschillende stappen bestaan en elke stap perfect moet verlopen.

Bijna twintig apparaten hebben eerder geprobeerd op Mars te landen, maar zeven pogingen zijn geslaagd. Bovendien was nog nooit eerder een Europese poging succesvol. Een landingsplaats zonder obstakels is dan ook belangrijk.

Onderzoek moet bevingen op Mars aantonen
Nu de InSight geland is, zal die zijn eigen instrumenten opstellen voor onderzoek. Een seismograaf zal bevingen in de grond detecteren en een warmtesonde zal meten hoe hitte wordt uitgestoten vanaf de kern van Mars. Ook beschikt de InSight over zonnepanelen en kan een camera panoramabeelden maken van de landingsvlakte.

Vermoedelijk zijn er wel bevingen op Mars, maar die zijn waarschijnlijk anders dan die op aarde. De aarde bestaat uit platen die langs, tegen, over en onder elkaar schuiven en schokken. Mars heeft die niet.

De wetenschappers achter de missie denken dat ze in de komende jaren tientallen tot honderden bevingen op Mars zullen meten. De zwaarste bevingen kunnen een magnitude van 6 hebben. Die trillingen kunnen iets vertellen over het binnenste van Mars.


Zie ook NASA InSight Lander Arrives on Martian Surface.
Gun jezelf wat je een ander toewenst     islam = racisme   & de hel op aarde voor mens en dier
                                   koran = racistisch & handboek voor criminelen
      Moslimlanden bewijzen dagelijks:    meer islam = meer verkrachte mensenrechten

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Di Nov 27, 2018 3:18 am

Nou, die is tenminste goed aangekomen... icon_thumbup.gif
De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
Ariel
Berichten: 71969
Lid geworden op: Wo Apr 07, 2004 10:30 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Ariel » Di Nov 27, 2018 12:06 pm

Dit is de eerste scherpe foto van Mars

Afbeelding
De geest van de wijze richt zich naar rechts, maar de geest van de dwaas naar links.

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Di Nov 27, 2018 3:39 pm

Mars in a Minute: What's Inside Mars?
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory - Gepubliceerd op 22 feb. 2018



We know what "The Red Planet" looks like from the outside -- but what's going on under the surface of Mars? Find out more in the 60-second video from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

Mars Calling: Manifest Destiny or Grand Illusion
SpaceRip - Gepubliceerd op 23 jul. 2018



Schitterende documentaire! icon_thumbup.gif
De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
Pilgrim
Berichten: 41282
Lid geworden op: Wo Jan 17, 2007 1:00 pm
Locatie: Dhimmistad

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor Pilgrim » Di Jan 08, 2019 5:10 pm

LIFE ON MARS Here’s what the Red Planet could look like if humans were to live on Mars

Scientists and astronauts believe man might be living on Martian soil by 2040

By Charlie Parker - 15th November 2018,

Afbeelding
This is what a typical apartment block on Mars could look like, according to experts.

SPECIALISTS have unveiled prototypes for human homes on a Martian colony after research revealed one in ten Brits would move to the Red Planet tomorrow if they could.

Architectural experts produced plans for three distinct dwellings fit for Mars: an apartment aimed at young professionals, a family home and a luxury mansion.

Each is designed to protect interplanetary homeowners from hazardous cosmic rays, space radiation and Mars' severe dust storms, as well as insulate them from the cold.

Details of the homes emerged after researchers found many Brits considered swapping planets for a sense of adventure, more living space and to escape human dangers on Earth.

Scientists and astronauts – including Brit Tim Peake - have said humans could colonise the Red Planet as early as 2040, with a proper settlement established by 2050.

A panel of specialists worked alongside a visualisation team to predict how future Martian homes are likely to look, with interior and exterior images released for a variety of futuristic residential builds.

Afbeelding
Architects predict family homes will be built within protective caves and include a driveway.

Afbeelding
Mars mansions will be part of a crater community, boasting showstopping vistas across the cavity from three levels.

Stephen Petranek, author of the book How We’ll Live on Mars, which the National Geographic series MARS is based on, said: “It’s exciting to think that humans will be living on Mars far sooner than most people think.

“The second series of MARS considers how a community might be built and sustained on the Red Planet in the 2040s, and what the challenges will be both from a practical and a human standpoint.

“For this forward-thinking project, we’ve predicted what different homes on Mars might actually look like, with options to suit a range of budgets.

“There are plenty of elements to consider, from ensuring an adequate shield to the harsh radiation Mars endures because its atmosphere is so thin, to the need for homely touches reminiscent of Earth.

Afbeelding
The interior of a mansion on the Red Planet.

Afbeelding
After a hard day of farming in near zero-parents can come home and put their feet up with their kids in this radiation-proof family home.

Afbeelding
A look inside an Martian apartment, designed to tempt young processionals to the space colony.

“Ultimately, living on Mars must seem more appealing and psychologically inviting than living on Earth or not enough people will want to make a new life there.

“As we make these predictions now, we can only wonder what designs we will actually adopt as hundreds of thousands of people eventually move to the Red Planet.”

The Mars apartment block features a number of living pods aimed at individuals and couples, with tunnels leading to a central shared garden and work spaces.

It is protected from the sun’s rays by tinted glazing featuring coating technology developed to filter out the radiation and rammed earth walls, designed to protect from the cold as well as cosmic rays.

Afbeelding
Experts unveiled a floorplan of an average family home on Mars.

Afbeelding
A apartment floorplan shows a cosy one-bedroom pad for colony dwellers.

The family home is built within a protective cave, with a driveway leading to an inbuilt garage as well as a conservatory-style veranda made from protective glass that offers a small indoor garden area.

The kind of natural light we would usually get from our windows on Earth is simulated via LEDs and camera systems that can show the outside landscape in real-time to mimic windows, and could even be programmed to provide other vistas.

For example parks, forests, rivers - familiar sights from Earth that our Martian residents might be missing.

The mansion is part of a crater community, offering show stopping vistas across the cavity from three levels.

It boasts a huge living space with private indoor garden and multi-gym that allows for ‘outdoor’ activities such as sports to take place in an artificially-oxygenated environment as well as a car port that can hold multiple vehicles.

According to the National Geographic research a fifth of Brits predict that it will be possible to move to Mars within their lifetime, and there is a significant appetite to make an interplanetary move.

One in six revealed that with people struggling to get on the housing ladder on Earth, buying property on Mars is looking like a more attractive prospect.

Brits revealed that the opportunity to enjoy a better quality of life, the desire to seek new adventure and the need to flee human dangers on Earth such as war would be the most likely factors to precipitate a move to Mars.

However, almost nine in ten predicted they would miss some aspects about life on Earth, including their pets and even the British weather.

[Zie ook korte video op de site.]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7744318/h ... e-on-mars/
De Islam is een groot gevaar!
Jezus leeft maar Mohammed is dood (en in de hel)

Gebruikersavatar
xplosive
Berichten: 7499
Lid geworden op: Do Jun 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Re: Kolonisatie van Mars noodzaak!

Berichtdoor xplosive » Vr Jan 11, 2019 10:05 am

Gun jezelf wat je een ander toewenst     islam = racisme   & de hel op aarde voor mens en dier
                                   koran = racistisch & handboek voor criminelen
      Moslimlanden bewijzen dagelijks:    meer islam = meer verkrachte mensenrechten


Terug naar “Topics allerhande”

Wie is er online

Gebruikers op dit forum: Geen geregistreerde gebruikers en 1 gast